Sound sheen is very commen in the world languagesmaqsood hasni04-09-2010, 11:32 AMAfter a deep, long, sensative thinking andlinguistic experiments of books and interviewswith the experts on languages that I havementioned four points in my writings:a. languages alphabets of exercise are
insufficient to meet the streat talkingand some very personal conversations /interviews.b. This is a serious and hot need of this agethat linguistic experts must do their best toinvent and create some more alphabetsounds.c. Crunt alphabets of the languages havemore than one sound in speakingor writing but they are not in record.d. Languages experts should get sounds fromnature, streat talks or children talks. They
can easily convert these sounds into symblesfor alphabet.These points are connected. Someone tookthem serious, but their attempts turtle arenot sufficient to meet the needs of this age.With the passage of time due circumtencesdifferent lifestyles and preferences have beentotally changed. In every moment of lifechallenges encountered strange horrible andhard events. These are stand before men as apolicy and not as qualified engineer. Geting toregister for these events available alphabetsare not enough. Poets and writers eventspaining people face a very uncomfortable.
They cover and to over come this deficiencythrough the sounds made compounds. Butthis attitude is incorrect and so lowstandered by all means. These compoundsalways create complications in prononciation.For example, sheen sound is very commen inthe world languages. In eastren, speciallysub-continent languages have this soundalmost like a part of the sound alphabet. Butlanguages of the west have not this sound likethe sound of alphabet. They use more than sixcompounds for this sound:1- Ch cliche nietzoche, Fitche, charade,
chauvanism2 - CE croce3 CI facial precious4 - Sh shift, sheet, shirt, shawal, shrink5 - Si asia, malaysia6 - Ti action, mention essential potentialresidentional, confidentionalThese compounds are also other sounds shine.Reader feel difficulty to pronounce thesesounds to made up. What bad or wrong inaddtion of a sound on regular bases inalphabet of the world's languages instead ofusing many many different types of
compounds. S is available in the alphabets ofthe westeren languages. After S shes soundcan be adapted. It can be demonstrated by asecond s under line or a line could be put onit. It can be read shes. Do see this addedsound in English alphabet:a ay an appleb bi bookC ce catd de doge ee eggf eff fang ge/gi girl
h eh heni ae inkwellj jay jugk kay kitel el lemonm em mangon en nothingo oo orangep pe/pi penq kur ar rails es sachools shes sirt, screening, seet, sawal, srink,
korose, nietzose, Crose, Fasal,presous, consous, asa, Malaysa, Menson,essensal, potensal,t te/ti treeu yo umblrellaV vi vanw dablu whistle, westx ex xraysy wae yearz zee (zed Amercian)zooCertainly first time s (shes) will be appearedas a stranger, but when it will become part
of the alphabet sound, people will not feelstrange with.04-09-2010, 11:59 AMKaty North Katy NorthI took some linguistic classes back in the dayso I will attempt to dive into this one.I commend you for posting on an englishspeaking forum... your command of thelanguage is very good. I apologize if I do notread your sentences as they were meant to
be written. I am not sure where you are frombut by your name I would guess an asian ormiddle eastern country.I lived in Japan for a few years, and I noticedthat unlike in american, their alphabetcorrelates very closesly to the sounds theymake when they speak. they have a characterfor \"ma\", \"Tsu\" and \"a\", and most of the timewhen they speak it is a combination of thesesounds... it gives the Japanese a veryrhythmic sounding language which I reallyenjoy.On the other hand, the English language is
more difficult to deal with. You noticed thatwe have only 26 letters in our alphabet, somehave multiple sounds in and of themselves(\"C\" can sound like either \"C\" or \"S\" forexample, as in either \"Cat\" or \"Certainly\"). Inaddition, we combine our letters to createmultiple sounds.(For the following, please excuse my linguisticfactoids if they are slightly off, it's been awhile since I took the classes)This is because, unlike some languages, Englishis not a phonetic language, instead, I believethe word is that it is a representativelanguage... the letters represent sounds and
meanings, but don't translate accurately intothe sounds. This is why, despite itswidespread use, English can be very difficultto learn. It's not that English would needmore sounds, but that English would needmore letters to represent the many diversesounds we have, some of which we nativespeakers use without even noticing it. Theinternational Phonetic alphabet makes adecent go at this, but it's not convenient toreteach the millions of people who alreadyspeak the English language, so right now it ismore the tool of linguists that anything else.I hope that helps you out, if you have any
more questions, ask and I'll try and answer...linguistics is fun!Hope is that thing with feathers that perchesin the soul and sings the tune without thewords and never stops... at all. ~EmilyDickinsonI ask not for a lighter burden, but for broadershoulders. ~Jewish Proverb04-10-2010, 05:20 AMWilde woman
grad school in upstate NYForgive me, but I don't understand youcompletely. However, here are somethoughts...Quote Originally Posted by maqsood hasniView PostFor example, sheen sound is very commen inthe world languages. In eastren, speciallysub-continent languages have this soundalmost like a part of the sound alphabet. Butlanguages of the west have not this sound likethe sound of alphabet. They use more than six
compounds for this sound:1- Ch cliche nietzoche, Fitche, charade,chauvanism2 - CE croce3 CI facial precious4 - Sh shift, sheet, shirt, shawal, shrink5 - Si asia, malaysia6 - Ti action, mention essential potentialresidentional, confidentionalIt sounds like you are talking about twoseparate phonemes: the voiced and unvoicedalveolar fricatives [\"ch\" and \"sh\" respectively],both of which have different symbols in the
IPA.(By the way, your #2 example - \"croce\" isnot an English word. It's Italian. I'm fairlysure the compound \"ce\" never is pronounced\"ch\" or \"sh\" in English, unless it's borrowedfrom another language.)If everyone used the IPA as their writtenalphabet, we wouldn't have the problemsyou're describing. But you're talking aboutrepresenting all sounds consistently andphonetically, which is unnatural in writtenlanguage.
Essentially, what you're describing aredifferences between languages in orthography(spelling) - which is not really something thatlinguistics (or at least phonology) can resolve.Since the visual representation (a letter orcharacter) of a sound oftentimes has nosimilarity whatsoever to its oral expression,people can conceivably invent many differentsigns (or visual representations) for the samephoneme. Even the IPA's symbols forphonemes are arbitrary - some are based offthe Roman alphabet, while others are takenfrom Greek, and so on.
For example: If you take any letter, say \"s\",you could not look at that symbol and know(inherently) how to pronounce it. There'snothing in the shape of the letter to guideyour mouth into expressing the sound orally.Hence, in linguistics, we have to describe thissound, rather long-windedly, as the\"unvoiced alveolar fricative.\" And this is truefor all letters. (However, my linguisticsprofessors have said in lecture that Koreancharacters are unique...some of them actuallydo show you how to position your tongue topronounce that particular sound.)This is a huge point in Saussure's work - that
the relationship between signifier (in thiscase, the phoneme) and the signified (thewritten representation) is arbitrary.After S shes sound can be adapted. It can bedemonstrated by a second s under line or aline could be put on it. It can be read shes.I don't understand what you're saying. Canyou explain more?Is this what you're talking about? If so, Iunderstand. In my intro linguistics class, Idescribed a similar phenomenon in Italian(how the letter \"c\" is pronounced differently
according to the vowel which follows it). Andmy instructor rather pompously told me thatI'd described a problem in orthography, notlinguistics.Last edited by Wilde woman; 04-10-2010at 06:01 AM. Reason: adding some thoughts04-16-2010, 04:45 AM #4maqsood hasniI realized the actul problemWhen I say sheen, kaaf or Chay; people livingin sub-continent, Arabic or Persian language
speaking, can easily understand that theseare their language alphabet sounds. Butpeople of the west or if these sounds are notavailable in some languages of the world,there people can not easily understand mypoint of view. Firstly I will try to explain thatwhat is sheen, kaaf or chay. These are thesounds of the alphabet (letters) in Urdu,Punjabi, Barahvi, Balochi, Sindhi, Rajistani,Mivati, Gojra, Haryana, Dakni, Pothohari,Saraeki, Arbitrary, Farsi and many otherlanguages. There forms are as under:sheen: sh شIt is alphabet sound ofsubcontinet's language and also in used andregular alphabet letter of Arabic and persian.
kaaf k, c, ch کfor geting this sound inEnglish often c (cat), k (kite) ch (school)are used.)chay: ch چfor taking this sound in English,often the sound made by a compound chis used. For example, look over these words:chest, cheep, peach, change, churchkhay: kh خThis sound is pure Arabic sound,but very common in many languages of thesub-countinet and have much commentary inPersian.Second point is this that a germen even theEnglish can easily under that in these words:standcliche nietzoche, Fitche, charade,
chauvanismcompound sound ch is providing sound sheen(sh).While croce (Atalian) there ce is pronouncedsheen (sh); Ka ro shay.Some where ci is also providing sound sheen(sh) for example have a friendly look overthese words:facial preciousSh, composed sound is very common andvery clear gloss sound letter. For reference seethese words:shift, sheet, shirt, shawal, shrink sheep, shallSome where si is used for letter sheen (sh). In
these words si is providing sound sheen (sh):Asia, MalaysiaIn many places composed gloss ti gives thesound sheen (sh):action, mention, essential, potentialresidentional confidentionalNative speakers or even the english speakingpersons will not feel problem or difficulty topronounce these so many compound soundsbut same position is not with thenone-natives or those who are living in theeast or for east. They can read thesecompound sounds very different way other
then the nativess. For example:ch for chay chestce for si/ke cource, resource, forceCompound sound sh in sub-continent forroman script is used for sheen (sh). Forexample:shak (doubt), sharbat (sweet drink), shadi(marriage, happiness) etc.si for si sick, silk, sinkti for ti citi (city), socity/sociti (socity), beauti(beauty), preti (pretty)For the removal of these severe comlications, Ihave suggested letter S (shes) which canbeused for sound sheen (sh) insted of using
different componds for geting sound sheen(sh).Compound sound ch has also manycomplications in pronounciation for nonenatives. This compound sound needs specialattantion and care of language experts. Italmost provides five different sounds:1- chay (ch)chary che re, ch arechaser cha sor2- kaaf (k)chasm ka zamchemistry kai mist ri3- sheen Sh/S
chassepot sha s pochasseur sha suo4- h (eh)chasid ha sidchasidic ha si dik5- khay (kh)munich, mu nikhboch bokhzolicha zo li khaIn various languages of east or for east, sh isused in roman/romanji script for soundsheen. For example see these words:shak (doubt)
sharbat (sweet drink)shadi (marriage, happiness)shamil (included)shola (flame)si for si sick, silk, sinkti for ti citi (city), socity/sociti (socity), beauti(beauty)For removal of these comlications I havesuggested letter S (shes) which canbe used forsound sheen (sh)insted of using differentcomponds for geting sound sheen.Compound sound ch has also manycomplications in pronounciation. Thiscompound sound needs special attantion and
care of language experts. It almost providesfive sounds:1- chay (ch)chary che re, ch arechaser cha sor2- kaaf (k)chasm ka zamchemistry kai mist ri3- sheen Sh/Schassepot sha s pochasseur sha suo4- h (eh)chasid ha sid
chasidic ha si dik5- khay (kh)munich, mu nikhboch bokhzolicha zo li khaLet me know how a native speaker solvethese problems ruling? Linguists should be toresolve the case arises because the sounds ofthese compounds. They must provide lettersof the alphabet to the sounds made. So ch,sh, ci, ti, si etc. are not only the sounds madeby compounds that have complications. Thenext time I will try to discuss over somecompounds of other sounds.
04-16-2010, 06:36 AMKaty Northhmmm, I'm still a little confused about whatyou're trying to say... I'll ask some questionsand see if I can figure out what you meanfrom your answers...Are you suggesting a change in the Englishlanguage?
Are you suggesting replacing the phoneme\"sheen\" with a unique character in the Englishlanguage?It sounds like you put a lot of thought intoyour discussion and I really wish I was able toread your posts better.Hope is that thing with feathers that perchesin the soul and sings the tune without thewords and never stops... at all. ~EmilyDickinson04-16-2010, 08:40 AM
WuWeiI'm not sure I understand all you're saying,but you seem to forget that the evolution ofspoken and written language quite often taketwo separate paths, or the same path atdifferent speed. Attempts to forcefully alterthe way a language is written are verydifficult unless there's a strong traditionbehind them (in France, for example, anational \"Academie\" has quite oftenintervened in these matters, to the point thatnowadays French is one of the languages inwhich the difference between spoken andwritten forms is bigger).
Virtually every language has multiplephonemes associated to single letters in thealphabet, as well as, sometimes, multiplerepresentation for the same phoneme. Butthis is not due to poor organizational skills,it's simply what happens when history takesits course...French:sound /o/beau [bo]tôt [to]faux [fo]
letter \"e\"sound /e/: exposition [eksposisjõ]sound /ε/: mer [mεr]sound /ã/: vent [vã]sound /ø/: ce [sø]sound /ð/: vendredi [vãdRðdi]no sound: père [pεr]These are merely examples of something thatis extremely common. Italian has this as well(though in italian the pronounciation is much
much closer to what is written than, say, inFrench), as does English.04-17-2010, 01:49 PM #7maqsood hasniAre you suggesting replacing the phoneme\"sheen\" with a unique character in the Englishlanguage?Yes, I suggest letter shes (s) rather thancombination sh maybe adjuested in englishalphabet because this combination has morethan 7 sounds that make confussion in
pronunciation, especially for none-natives.04-18-2010, 02:12 PMLanguages are by the man and for the manIt's a common and open fact that everylanguage sounds and words are getting effectfrom local and forigen languages . But eachlanguage has its own style, word's culture,language speaking, listening and writingsystem, grammar, sentence requirements, thespeaker's attitude, flexsibility in form oforgans, its people's behaviour, needs of socity,
the economic situation and the circle andsocial relations. These facts and and manyother references are most effective helper toinvent new sounds and words with the helpof imported words from other languages. Ifthese sounds and words will follow the rulesof that language then these words or soundswill have got room in that language or toungeotherwise they will not have space/place inthat language. During this process somethingnew take place in that language. For example:1 - The worlds can not be written in Romancharacters with the za'ay Farsi ()ژ.To resolve this matter, compound/substitute
sounds j/g/y/ion will be usedi.e. mijgaan/miya/mijda/television/decsion2 - Which language is governed otherlanguages spoken words can be convertedthatthe language sounds available from its ownalphabet sounds rather than theoriginal speech sounds. For ready referenceplease see these examples:( ظ, ض, ز, ( ذArabic, Persian, Urdu, PunjabiSaraeki. Pothohari, Gojri etc.) reads: ذ ذکرzikr ذریعہzaria
ز ارزاںarzaan نمازnamaz ض ضعیفzaeef عرضarz ظ ظالمzalim ظرفzarfkamisan (wife) camizn insted of camisannozomi (Wish) nozomi, insted of nosomioozora (Heaven) oozora insted of oosora3 - Where the sounds are not available theresubstitute sounds can be used.For reference check out these examples:
ت تلوارtalwaar تربوزtarbooz ڑ آڑوaaru/aadu ریڑیrairi/raidi4 - Words get associated with that language.See these examples:a. advice advice laina, advice karna, advicehona etc.bound bound karna, bound hona, boundnikalna etc.care care karna, care hona, care daina etc.b. vote votroon, votaan, votraan, votain etc.sport spotraan, spotoon, spotain etc.
c. mintue mint'mar5 - Sigular plural and sexual identity are lost:* word media is used sigular in Urdu, Punjabisaraeki, Gojra, Barahvi, Gujrati,Pothohari, Pakhto etc.* these words: hoor, ahwal, asami, oqaat areprural in Arabic but are used singular inmany languages of the sub-continent.* Firdoos is a Persian word. It is fimine inPunjab, but oposist sex in Sarhad.6 - In the new language the words often fail
to remain their meanings. ie. sex animalglass, jaloos, etc. have not used in theirorignal meaning in Urdu, Punjabi etc.As these examples I can present herehundreds. These six examples are enough todemonstrate that words and sounds can notkeep their forms and meanings in orignal inother languages. Like many other languages,English have taken hundreds of words andsounds from other languages. English wordsand sounds have not taken themself toremain in the orignal sounds, forms ormeanings. After migration in this languagewe can not identify their oriban. If the newlanguage to meet the sustitute sounds then
what need to deliver through composedmigirated sounds?!Hundreds words started by ch and providesound kaaf (k). I think this is not fair becausech is composed at a time many sounds. Forexample:ch sh شsheen shes s nietzoche cliche, Fitch,charade, chauvanismKhay ch خkh Munch, Zelicha (qibti)Chay ch چchest, chair, Chesterch kaaf K کchemical kemi klchemist ke mistchiasma ki az'machiasmus ki az'mas
chimeric ka merikchlorophyl klo ra filchrismal kriz'mlchrist kristchrome kromchronic karonikchromite kromitchroma kromaThese words get start by compound ch andare providing sound k. These words arealmost came from the greek. Here my goal isdepending on three things:
1 - The English alphabet has its ownregistered alphabet letter k. What it need tostart these words by ch. While this thing wasdecided that English is a languagewith its own identity. Because to startmigrate words with their original style rulesandlinguistics established. The compound ch thatgive sound k (kaaf) canbe written byletter k.2- chrismal kriz'mlchiasmus ki az'masreason rezan
season seazantreason treazanprose prozrose rozpose poznose nozhose hozlose lozresume rezumresist rezistcosy cozimisery mizeri
In many words sound s is giving sound z whatneed to write it with s why not with z? Manywords are available in English, which areproviding their orignal sound s (س-seen).Please see these words:Dose dosLoose loosNoose noosGoose goos3 - The third point is that some words endwith e and this aditional e has no functionin a word. For example look at these words:resume, Dose, loose, prose, pink, pose, nose,
hose, lose, chromium, chromiteI think after removing this extra e, no badeffect can be seen at any stage.Of course this argument can not easilydiagest and a book written logic that aredifferent from the language of the street.My opion is that this place to get all thewritings in the books of the street and all thewritings are on the road but not above orbelow ground.04-18-2010, 09:06 PM
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